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Thread: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

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    Default [SOLVED] Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Greetings to all, and thanks in advance for each attempt at helpful answers. Before I get to my present questions, I feel it necessary to indicate both my presumptions and my problem:

    Presumption 1:
    The members of this forum are generally of above-average intelligence and collectively represent a diverse body of professions and expertise; however, more germane to the issue I will address is that each such member has to some degree or another had to find a way to overcome thermal issues affecting the stability and operability of their respective computational platforms.

    Presumption 2:
    In a traditional hybrid liquid-air cooling system (in which liquid removes the heat from the device being cooled and transports that energy to a radiator which rejects that energy into air), cooling efficacy is not exactly correlated to any single factor (the most commonly cited examples probably being radiator size, water flow or air flow). Similarly, better materials do not always overcome the deficiencies of bad design (i.e.: form).

    Presumption 3:
    Efficacy is independent from efficiency; moreover, while efficiency itself is an economic concept, it reflects the balance of competing objectives.

    For instance: from the end-user's perspective, the most energy-efficient way to power a computer might be to rely on solar power, but the capital and reliability costs of such application might be prohibitively high. If operation in a developed area is assumed, grid power may be sufficiently reliable; however, if grid power is either unreliable or unavailable, an alternative energy source must be found: a petrol-powered standby generator with automatic transfer switch and a (separate) power conditioner setup might be the most efficient solution.


    Basic Information:

    I am tasked with the cost-effective deployment of an austere-environment computer providing workstation performance and server reliability. As conceived, it will have limited portability. It is conceded that any solution to the problem presented will consume much more energy than the amount devoted to computing; that the ultimate solution will be far more bulky, complex and costly than a typical gaming rig; that this is not in any sense a mainstream application of technology, etc.

    Problem:

    Here, austere-environment is taken to indicate the ambient air temperature will occasionally exceed 40C (104F) for extended periods (i.e.: days or weeks), with annual relative humidity averaging about 70 percent and ordinarily exceeding 90 percent (but occasionally being below 15 percent) during especially morning hours and ordinarily falling to 60-65 percent in the evening.

    It is presently believed that remote-radiator cooling system inlet air temperature can in practice be maintained at (or perhaps a fraction of a degree below) 35C (95F); it is simultaneously acknowledged that the 21C (70F) cooling-system inlet-air temperatures common to PC-system reviews will during most of the year be impossible to match. On the other hand, there will be periods when the environmental ambient temperature is well below freezing, in which cases it is believed that recycling the waste energy will maintain system components significantly above 10C (50F).

    A number of possibilities regarding how to execute such a design spring immediately to mind; perhaps the simplest in terms of execution is the air-conditioned cabinet. AFAIK, well-designed household air-conditioning ("AC") systems are able to reduce indoor temperatures by 11C (20F) or more; obviously, industrial refrigeration units are capable of much greater thermal rejection. Technically, I have the ability to assemble a R134a (or similar refrigerant)-based cooling system from separated components (dissimilar scraps, for instance), but at present I don't think such fabrication is the most efficient route to the identified goal.

    Fabricating an insulated cabinet to house the principal thermal components (i.e.: the computer, less the human-interface pieces) and a household (i.e.: "window-unit") AC unit isn't a problem for me, and it seems such a solution would simultaneously solve both thermal and humidity concerns; if I need to build a controlled-humidity micro-room (e.g.: the size of a small closet) for maintenance purposes, I can. For such a system, the "ambient" air perceived by the principal thermal components would be recirculated; the airflow across the condenser would be sourced from the coolest local source and exhausted remotely.

    This is only slightly different in the specifics of its implementation from the production-floor "refrigerated" systems common in manufacturing centers. It adds the advantage of very clean (recirculated filtered) air. It is assumed that I will install the electronic components under conditions of relatively low humidity, and that the evaporator will be drained; I have several ideas on how to ensure no errant moisture gets to the sensitive components.

    In the alternative, piecing together a remote-radiator water-cooled system in which the radiators are mounted in a duct through which air is drawn through a filter by a centrifugal fan (aka: "blower") and exhausted remotely could lower the temperatures of most critical components to tolerable levels; filtered forced fresh air would also be used for direct application to the principal components.

    The non-refrigerated-air solution would occasionally leave some components outside their certified or warranted operating-temperature range, which could lead to data corruption or other problems. However, it is common for published limits to be remarkably conservative, so I'm not certain this method is a non-starter.

    Computational Platform Specifics:

    2P motherboard; at present, I am leaning towards an initial configuration consisting of either a Tyan S8225 WAGM4NRF with (2x) AMD Opteron 4238 CPUs, or an Asus KGPE-D16 or a Supermicro H8DG6-F with either (2x) AMD Opteron 6212 or (1x) AMD Opteron 6220 CPUs. I am still researching RAM: the QVLs are next to useless, but as a general guide, I'm most likely going to begin with 32GB DDR3-1333 (PC3-10800). These choices should allow me to use a Radeon HD7970, which should provide good performance while being a lot less expensive than a FirePro V9800 and only a fraction the cost of a Quadro 6000.

    At least for now, I will be stuck with MS Windows 7 (64-bit) for my OS.

    Questions:

    1. Remembering that the installation environment will be as described, what (if any) cooling options have I overlooked?

    2. How can I estimate the Btu load of a fully-stressed system, so as to determine what size air conditioner I ought to get for it? I realize that 1 W-hour ~ 3.413 Btu, but do I need to consider only the energy being rejected by the system in the form of heat, or should I use the estimated peak line load (ignoring the burden of the AC "chiller unit") or something else?

    3. Do I need to alternately de-rate or up-rate the Btu capacity of the AC unit above or below a certain temperature and relative humidity (because that will influence the efficiency at which the condenser operates)? If so, shouldn't this information be mapped, or is reliance on a thermostat or thermometric probe sufficient? Or do I need to do the math and make a table of standardized operating practices?

    4. How can I predict the optimal CFM flow rate for my system, so as to maximize the efficiency of "thermal scrubbing" both across the main board (to optimize "chill-factor" cooling arising from airflow across components) and across the evaporator coil?

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by Havaneiss Dei; 15-03-2012 at 01:08. Reason: To indicate that solution has been found.

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    When Survivals the goal, it's into the Spider Hole
    You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas! ~ Davey Crockett

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    You lost me at hello

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drdeath View Post
    You lost me at hello
    but you got me Hellooooo..

    @Dei; are planing to cool the computer or nuclear generator?

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deton View Post
    but you got me hellooooo..

    @dei; are planing to cool the computer or nuclear generator?
    lmao!!!

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deton View Post
    but you got me Hellooooo..

    @Dei; are planing to cool the computer or nuclear generator?
    I would say a little beyond Pure Overclocks PHD level!

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    OMG -- Where to begin? I got a PM that clued me in to a hardcore cooling site (they actually have a section devoted to sub-ambient cooling!). Don't get me wrong: I still hope that I will prove to be a "valuable lurker" in this forum, but I think I'm learning things that will lead to the solutions I am seeking. Thanks to all who participated! Double thanks for the helpful PM!

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    I do an occassional sub zero for reviews...

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    This hypothesis sounds like a military class application in the making.

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    the closet/enclosure idea would be super. i can't see those opties getting that hot, though the gpu will most definitely, if you are really needing it's horsepower.

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Ha ha. It's nowhere close to that. During my later youth (from about when the 80286-12 was considered a truly badass hotrod, to when AMD's 386-40 and the DX4-100 were kings of the consumer hill), I spent a little while at WES (Waterways Experiment Station; US Army Corps of Engineers; Vicksburg, MS) and the Cray had (for its day) awesome computing power, but the things that truly impressed me were the ubiquitous SGI Indigo and Onyx machines used as virtualization workstations and the Sun local servers (nicknamed "heaters") -- and, of course, the toys in the visualizaton labs.

    WES also had antique equipment that was maintained in usable condition; I saw antique hard drives that were freaking gigantic: spinning platters in a cabinet (IIRC) that seemed about 30-35 percent taller than it was deep, and about 20-25 percent deeper than its 3/4-meter width; I have no idea what they weighed, but it had to be a lot. I once heard someone say the hard drive was about the size of a (clothes-) washing machine -- and I think that's a very reasonable comparison.

    That stuff was still around when they got fiber optic connections -- well before fiber optics were publicly acknowledged. They could make a super museum for nerds, if they wanted to, but nowadays they're too paranoid to do anything that makes good sense.

    I spent 6 in the USAF and MSANG; I've seen what Uncle Sam has to play with, and even the "junk" stuff the military discarded several generations ago far -- way, waaay far -- outclasses anything I (or, for that matter, anyone I know) will ever be able to put together.

    Besides, I'm not in that business, anymore
    Last edited by Havaneiss Dei; 15-03-2012 at 18:44.

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drdeath View Post
    You lost me at hello
    The funny thing there is that he never said hello XD

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoLoMoTo View Post
    The funny thing there is that he never said hello XD
    yes he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havaneiss Dei View Post
    Greetings to all, ....

    Thanks again!

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    Default Re: Cloudy, with a chance of answers?

    Knock up a test box as you described that contains a test rig and an con blower. choose your poison, an intel 2011 board with a six core should give you some heat. If your choice of aircon is small (on old or off the shelf unit maybe) then I suspect you could run some testing based on the speed and load applied to the rig to ascertain the load capability and therefore size the unit based on real figures. The initial calculation may well work by considering the power drawn from the wall, you mentioned a 2p rig plus high end gpu plus accessories so as a ballpark say 750w full load then multiply by watts times 3.41 for btu per hour = 2557. not by any means a large unit even if you consider the losses at 80%. that would still only be a 3200 btu/h unit You mention further losses... the only ones I can think of are cabinet insulation losses but how to calculate???

    Venting the heat from the condenser away during hot conditions and re directing it to where it is needed during cold weather may offer some payback on what is a less than efficient way of cooling but one which is currently employed worldwide.

    Were you thinking to employ water cooling inside the cabinet as well as controlling the cabinet temps? This would allow you to direct the output air from the evaporator to the rad and then on to the MB. Take a look at how small blast chillers do this air flow control

    EDIT just a thought, If you were able to hermetically seal the cabinet, you might be able to vac/charge the cabinet itself to slightly over atmospheric with nitrogen...clean and non condensing you could then by means of a plate exchanger go sub zero on the cooling loop if you felt that would offer anything to the solution
    Last edited by grumpydaddy; 16-03-2012 at 13:55.
    Rig2: 2*e5-26xx (16c/32t @2.4), Asus z9 pe-d8 ws, 32gb ripjawsz under water, rig3 2*e5-26xx (16c/32t @2.4), Supermicro 7047A-T 16GB 1600 ecc reg, on air, Rig4: 2*e5-26xx (16c/32t @3.1), Supermicro x9 DAi 16GB 1600 ecc reg, on air, Rig5: 2*e5-2660 (16c/32t @2.7), Supermicro x9 DRW iF 32GB 1600 ecc reg, on air

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